[00:00:18] Samantha: Hi, this is Samantha and welcome to The Layman’s Doctor podcast, where we’re Bringing Medicine Home. Today, I have with me Gavin Goffe. I’m so excited to have you here to record with me. I can’t believe this is happening. The Gavin Goffe, big man in Jamaica. You mind introducing yourself, Gavin?
[00:00:40] Gavin: Hi, I’m Gavin. Thanks for having me, Samantha. I’m Gavin Goffe. I’m a lawyer and I am 40 years old.
[00:00:50] Samantha: But you’re not just a lawyer. Don’t you have some special letters behind your name? I mean.
[00:00:55] Gavin: I mean, that’s so mundane [laughter]. But yes, I’m a lawyer. I am a partner at my law firm, Myers, Fletcher and Gordon and I do a lot of litigation.
[00:01:09] Samantha: Okay. But that’s not why we’re here today. I know Gavin from Twitter. If you ever hear me talk, I love Twitter. Twitter is a great place for me. It’s where I’ve met a lot of people. It’s a great place to make some connections. So I know Gavin through Twitter and Gavin shares, on his Twitter, a lot. Shares not just about law, not just really funny jokes. First it was like puns, but now it’s dad jokes. So if I want– they always make me laugh. I’m not going to lie. They always make me laugh because I love corny, kind of lame dad jokes.
[00:01:46] Gavin: How wonderful. How wonderful.
[00:01:48] Samantha: But recently, or not so recently, you shared with Twitter and by extension, the whole of Jamaica and some other countries, that you adopted a child. And that’s something that I know a lot of persons want to know more about and are interested in, and especially how to go about it in Jamaica. So just tell us a little bit about that.
[00:02:14] Gavin: Right. Well, it was my wife and I who decided to adopt. We had been thinking about it for a long time. And I must say that we were– we had our own reservations and concerns, as most people would have, about making that kind of decision. So it wasn’t an easy decision at all to make. I mean, some of the concerns you have about, as we say in Jamaica, “Getting a puss in a bag.” And all the issues that can be included in it and the long waiting list and complications. What if the child has an illness or disability or–? I mean, there were– we went through the full range of questions and concerns and fears. And then we got a telephone call. We, first of all, let people know that we were interested in adopting, and–
[00:03:15] Samantha: What do you mean by people? Because, I mean, I don’t think all of us know the procedure of how to go about adoption. So did you go to a home, was it somebody you knew?
[00:03:27] Gavin: Sure. Well, there are two different ways of doing adoption. You can do it through the state and you can do it as a private arrangement, which is later on then sanctioned by the state. So we had chosen that we wanted to do a private arrangement which would later on be sanctioned by the state. And what that means is that you need to be put in touch. You need to find somebody who is willing to give up their child for adoption, and that can be whilst the person’s pregnant or even after they’ve given birth. There’s no real limitation on it. But people who’d tend to want to have children, who want to adopt children from birth, tend to go the route of private because under the state process, one, the list is very long, people wanting to get newborns, and they don’t give you children who are younger than six–
[00:04:23] Samantha: Six weeks.
[00:04:24] Gavin: Six weeks old.
[00:04:25] Samantha: Okay.
[00:04:26] Gavin: So for those reasons, people sometimes, if they can, we’ll try to do a private adoption, and then later have it sanctioned by adoption. So we put the word out there to people who may know and may come in contact with people who are thinking about adoption. So that would include doctors, nurses, people who are in the public sector, there’s welfare officers, or–
[00:04:54] Samantha: So, basically, persons who would interface with pregnant mothers who may be– either they may not want to carry the child, or rather, not carry, but may not want to keep the child or can’t afford to keep the child and are willing to give them to– I don’t even know if I can say– I don’t know the language. I feel like I’m tip-toeing. But–
[00:05:14] Gavin: That’s okay. Politically correct term to use.
[00:05:18] Samantha: Yeah. I’m trying to be politically correct because I don’t want it to sound like a present or some– it’s a child. It’s a huge decision. But– okay.
[00:05:27] Gavin: So we put the message, put the word out there, and then we got the call. We got a call from someone who said that they’d met someone who had just, in passing conversation, said that they wanted to give up their child for adoption. At that point in time, they didn’t know they were having a boy or a girl. And so we were contacted and we met with the mother and we, after sharing our experiences and getting to know the mother a little bit more, we decided that we were ready to take the leap. And we made sure that we set out the obligations that we would have, things that we would not be doing. For instance, it’s very important that you avoid anything that looks like trafficking in humans. And so you can’t really be paying somebody for their child. But there is an area in which you can offer some kind of assistance in the process.
[00:06:20] Samantha: Okay. Because, I mean, if we watched movies, a lot of times– movies either about adopting from someone or having a surrogate, which I don’t think we have kind of a legal framework–
[00:06:29] Gavin: We don’t have the right legal framework.
[00:06:30] Samantha: –they often pay for visits, or just taking care of the mother while they’re carrying the child. So do you think– do you mean things like that?
[00:06:41] Gavin: Things like that, right. So I mean, we bore all the expenses for her doctor and for her hospital in terms of prenatal care. And even postnatal care, we took care of that as well. The monies that she would have earned had she been working, essentially the equivalent of maternity leave, we paid for that as well. So we tried to make sure that the biological mother was taken care of as much as possible and within the boundaries of what the law permits. And then, yeah, when the– I remember, very clearly, the night that she went into labor because they wouldn’t allow me onto the ward because I’m not the father, and nor was I going to represent myself as being the father of this child. So they wouldn’t allow me onto the ward. So she was there by herself. But she was calling me all through the night. She was in so much pain and she– I mean, I really felt as if I was–
[00:07:37] Samantha: You were there.
[00:07:39] Gavin: I really felt as if I was there.
[00:07:41] Samantha: Was your wife able to go inside?
[00:07:43] Gavin: No, she wasn’t able to go inside either at the time. So it was really one of those things where we had to, essentially, be, by remote, monitoring the birth of who would eventually be our child. So it was one of those nights. I’ll never forget that night. And then about– I think it was about 3:00 in the morning or 4:00 in the morning, we got the message that he had arrived. And we couldn’t wait until morning. We were actually able to go and visit and see our son.
[00:08:19] Samantha: So did you still have to wait that six weeks’ time to actually have him physically.
[00:08:26] Gavin: No, we took him home straight from the hospital.
[00:08:28] Samantha: Okay.
[00:08:29] Gavin: Right. But I mean, the doctors and the nurses were very clear that they weren’t handing the baby to us. They were handing the baby to the biological mother.
[00:08:36] Samantha: And then she in turn–
[00:08:36] Gavin: And then she could, in turn, could hand it over to us. So they weren’t recognizing us as having anything to do with this child.
[00:08:41] Samantha: Okay. I know from my experience on the labor ward that when they have the registration, it’s usually the mother’s name and whoever they choose the—well, not whoever they choose the father to be, but whoever the father is. So there ends up being a change off– does the birth certificate get changed?
[00:09:03] Gavin: Right? Well, in this case, we had worked that all out in advance with the mother. So we had an agreed that she wouldn’t put the biological father’s name on the birth certificate, and that she would give him the name that we chose, including the surname, because you can put whichever surname you wish on–
[00:09:20] Samantha: Really?
[00:09:21] Gavin: Yes. That’s one thing that a lot of people don’t know, that if–
[00:09:24] Samantha: I could just give my child another last name.
[00:09:26] Gavin: You could give your child any last name you wish.
[00:09:29] Samantha: Okay. Okay. Okay.
[00:09:31] Gavin: So he was born with our surname and the name that we had selected. And so we didn’t have to do any– when the formal paperwork was done, we didn’t have to do any of that. But we took him home straight from the hospital, and that was not under a court order or anything of that nature, but that was just based on our agreement with the biological mother. And then after that– so then, we were able to, essentially, bypass that whole six week waiting period. But we did have to wait at least six weeks before we could put in the application for adoption.
[00:09:58] Samantha: Okay. So what about the well-baby visits and–? Because I know– I can’t remember the schedule because I haven’t done pediatrics as yet, but I know at least at six weeks, they have to go back. So you guys were the ones carrying him for the visit?
[00:10:12] Gavin: Yeah, yeah. So we took him for all his visits to his pediatrician, and he was doing very, very well. And as part of the adoption process, you do have to fill out medical reports, not only for the child, but for yourselves. So–
[00:10:28] Samantha: Really?
[00:10:28] Gavin: Yeah. The adoptive parents also need to have medicals done and have a doctor sign off to say that they are also healthy. And there are a whole host of additional tests, blood tests, HIV/AIDS, a whole range of tests which are required under the laws and guidelines for the adoption to be able to be done. And so as part of that entire process, so they checking out your health, they checking out your home. So they come and do a visit of your home and do an inspection. Every single room, they go through and make sure. They want to know about your finances. They want to know about your background, your social background, your religious inclinations and your affiliations. They want to know about your income and they want it to be investigating all of that. So it’s a really, really in-depth process. You also have to have references. So they want to make sure that you are fit and proper people to be in charge of somebody else’s child.
[00:11:30] Samantha: Okay. It really sounds like a robust process, and it really sounds like you kind of just– you were just a little bit lucky to just have someone say, in passing, and then kind of like it just kind of– it aligned, it was a blessing. Just listening to your story, it sounds like they may have some room for improvement in terms of the entire– how the process went about. I don’t know if you know much about going through the state, but I want to hit on the private one first. You said that you went around by basically putting the word out there, right? Do you think there’s a space or there might be a need that can kind of match persons who want to go through a private process, say, persons who want to adopt can– I don’t want to say it like a–
[00:12:31] Gavin: Like a service.
[00:12:33] Samantha: Yeah, that matches people to people versus having to put the word out there. Because I can very easily see if I’m, for example, interfacing with a lot of mothers or pregnant women who may not necessarily have ever thought about adopt adoption, but realistically, they can’t necessarily afford to manage a child, and they may not even know that there are persons out there who may be looking to adopt.
[00:13:04] Gavin: I mean, we have to be careful with that because that can take you down a slippery slope of human trafficking.
[00:13:10] Samantha: Okay. That’s true. That’s true.
[00:13:12] Gavin: So I mean, there are provisions in the law which speak about, especially, people who want to charge to arrange for an adoption to take place. That’s absolutely outlawed.
[00:13:23] Samantha: Yeah.
[00:13:24] Gavin: So would have to be an agency or something that is heavily regulated to make sure that it’s all above [inaudible]. But yeah, the fact is that right now, it’s happening very much word of mouth and very much in an informal way. And it probably could be improved, in a sense. But the actual process itself, even though it is long, I mean, through the states–
[00:13:49] Samantha: It sounds very thorough.
[00:13:50] Gavin: It is thorough. And I mean, sometimes when I tell people what we had to go through, they say, “Boy, I don’t know if I could go through all that.” But when you compare it to carrying a child for nine and a half months, or whatever it is, it’s nothing in comparison.
[00:14:04] Samantha: I’m not going to beat the process because it is another human’s life and it makes sense. You want the person who wants to adopt this child to not be someone who wants to take advantage of the situation.
[00:14:18] Gavin: That’s right.
[00:14:18] Samantha: They want a good home, one or they can grow up in, and they can provide for them. So in terms of the state, is it that if I’m pregnant, I don’t want to keep this child, do I have to give the child up to the state first, and then the state– someone on the list adopts the child? Or–
[00:14:42] Gavin: No. If it’s a private arrangement, you can simply indicate on the form that you already have identified a child.
[00:14:48] Samantha: Okay. But say I haven’t done that, and you said that the list is long, especially for newborns. So is it that– is that newborns who are in a state home or I don’t know, do I just go to– I don’t know what the agency is called. Do I just go to them and say, “Hey, I want to give my child up for adoption. Can you help me find somebody?”
[00:15:08] Gavin: Right. So, I mean, it could be in relation to children in state homes or it could be related to children who are still with their biological parents whilst the process is going through. So there are a number of different ways it can take place. But yes, if you are– if you’re not keen on having a newborn, and you’re open to having a child who’s already three, four years old, then the wait is much shorter.
[00:15:36] Samantha: Oh, okay.
[00:15:37] Gavin: Yeah. The wait is much shorter for older children.
[00:15:39] Samantha: I don’t know if it sounds bad to say, but I’m going to say what everybody’s thinking. Most persons would prefer to have a newborn. And it’s something that we see in TV shows. We see it in the– not necessarily news, but we see it in documentaries all the time. Most persons would rather to have a new baby. But three to four years old, yes, the wait is shorter, but I can see why it’s shorter. And it’s very, sorry to say, sorry to– it’s hard to think about. You know I’m very open about saying that I want to adopt. I find that it’s really easy to just love children, whether they’re biologically yours or not, and you’re very open about the fact that your son is adopted. I’m not going to ask you if you plan on telling him because, I mean, once he’s old enough to go on social media, he’ll be like, “Dad, what?”
[00:16:43] Gavin: He’s going to know.
[00:16:45] Samantha: Yeah. I was talking to, maybe, one of– I think, one of my guests before I was recording. I was telling him about the guests that I plan to have on the show, and they follow you on Twitter, they see you on Twitter, and he said, “What? That little baby that he posts is adopted? That’s not his baby?” Maybe it’s the case when married couples get together, they kind of start looking like each other. Maybe that happens with the kids. But they were very surprised. So I feel like if you had decided to keep it a secret, it could have happened. But what made you choose not to keep it a secret?
[00:17:23] Gavin: That’s a good question. Part of it is that I don’t think you can really keep something like that a secret in Jamaica. I mean, all of a sudden you show up with a newborn baby, not having been pregnant for nine months. People tend to figure it out.
[00:17:38] Samantha: Yeah. Because I follow your wife and I follow you on Instagram too, and you see nice Carnival pictures, and then nine months later you’re like, “Wait, what?” And in between, like five months before, four months before, you’re seeing flat tummy, nice pictures. And you’re like, “Okay, so where did this baby come from?”
[00:17:55] Gavin: Yeah, yeah. Precisely. So, I mean, we– and we actually only had about a few– maybe two months’ notice that we were going to be adopting, or that this baby was going to be coming into our lives. So we couldn’t have done what some people do and shut down their Instagram accounts–
[00:18:10] Samantha: Just disappear for nine months.
[00:18:11] Gavin: And just disappear for awhile and make it seem as– we didn’t have that luxury.
[00:18:15] Samantha: I think it would have been hard for you guys too because both of you are, not necessarily celebrities, but fairly well-known, based on your professions. And, I mean, your wife is in the newspaper quite a few times. So maybe if it were you, but not your wife. I don’t think–
[00:18:37] Gavin: But part of it as well is that there really is a stigma against adoption in Jamaica.
[00:18:43] Samantha: Yes. Yes.
[00:18:44] Gavin: And I mean, even in our case, the biological mother was telling us about people in her family and the community who were really criticizing her very harshly for having given up her child for adoption.
[00:18:59] Samantha: Okay.
[00:18:59] Gavin: And this woman already had three children and she was not even 30 years old yet. So even though there was, obviously, a financial struggle and she was unable to cope, her family was still very, very critical of her for giving up the children. So part of the reason why we wanted to be open about it is that we want it to confront this. We wanted to be part of that dialogue so that people can, hopefully– or what we can contribute, hopefully, to changing people’s mindset about even giving up your child. And especially coming from a culture like ours where adoption is seen almost as in the same light as an abortion. People say, “You don’t dash weh belly,” and people say, “You don’t gi weh yuh pickney.” And you try to find a way to make ends meet, no matter what, no matter if the child has to suffer in the process. So part of it is having a conversation about why do we have to do that? Why do we have to encourage this kind of hardship and suffering in the name of biology–
[00:20:15] Samantha: Keeping them.
[00:20:16] Gavin: –and keeping your biological children with you? So we certainly wanted to make sure that we didn’t contribute to the stigma. And so we were very open about it.
[00:20:24] Samantha: I can see where– I mean, I can only say as far as my own circle with this, extending to my own Twitter feed where, a lot of times, speaking about adoption has come up. And when I speak about it, a lot of women, especially, are open about the fact that they want to adopt as well, and for various reasons. And it’s mostly the women I see. I think that men usually are hesitant. I remember speaking to a friend of mine and I said, “I’m not interested in carrying a child biologically; I really want to adopt.” And they’re like, “Boy, yuh come offa my list right there, yuh nuh?” And it’s a reality that you have to face. If you’re someone who is steadfast in adoption, then it can be difficult to find a partner.
[00:21:23] When you have to face that, and when you look at some of the reasons why women have to adopt or may want to adopt, you have to think about difficulties with getting pregnant. A lot of them shared that they don’t want to go through the trouble, or they may have various gynecological problems that might affect them, and this is why that’s happening. And just from a personal– just from my personal point of view, it’s just that I don’t want– the option of adoption gives me a form of freedom where I don’t have to think about my biological clock. And then, with my own personal health, I don’t have to think about the risks associated with getting pregnant. And I don’t have to, necessarily, think about, just, all of those various factors that might affect me, whether physically, emotionally, or otherwise.
[00:22:31] But then, when you have on the flip side– you kind of have a culture where every man want a yute, and them nuh waan no jacket, and all of those things, it can be hard to find a partner, I guess, in our context. I’m not so sure about anywhere else. That is open. So I really like the fact– I only know a few persons who are adopted. A lot of them, it’s more in-family adoption where your mother had a child– your mother had you, and then your auntie take care of you. And sometimes it’s very informal. I’ve seen cases where it has been a formal adoption as well. But we very rarely talk about a stranger to stranger type of adoption. So when do you plan to tell him?
[00:23:20] Gavin: I don’t know. The fact is that– we have to be conscious of the fact that it is out there in the public space, and I certainly don’t want somebody else to tell him before we do. So we haven’t made a decision yet in terms of an age, but I think it probably will be relatively early. And it’s something that we are– there’s a lot of material out there that you can read up on in terms of how and when to do it. So we look forward to that with a little trepidation, but we know that we’re going to have to do it, absolutely.
[00:23:53] Samantha: Yes. I’m just thinking about– because in social media, even kids are using it. Kids have their own Instagram pages, and it’s very easy, if you’re starting school, that the kids might know that they’re adopted and anything can happen, [they’d?] be like, “Oh, you know that’s not your real dad.” They might not mean anything hard by it, but you can imagine hearing that.
[00:24:14] Gavin: Yes, exactly. Feeling different is really one of the concerns we have, and kids can be really cruel sometimes when confronted with different people [crosstalk].
[00:24:23] Samantha: But you have definitely– you and your wife have definitely shown the capacity of love because I can’t, just looking on your pages, on your social media pages, I don’t see how you’re– I don’t think you’re loving him any different than you would love a child, a biological child.
[00:24:50] Gavin: And I think that’s part of it that was so important for us to be open about it because, and I’ve said this before, I don’t know of anybody who was ever regretted adopting a child. That you may think before you have adopted that you don’t know if you could love this child the same way as a biological one, or you don’t know if– at the end of the day, I don’t know a single person who has ever regretted it. You will love that child. And you will love that child, I think, in the same way that you would love your own biological child, which may not be as much as you would think, or it maybe even be actually more than you ever thought because in my case, for instance, I couldn’t even imagine my life without Julian now. So it’s certainly by far one of the best decisions that we have ever made. And it’s something that we are very, very proud to share. And in due course, hopefully, we will get him a sister, so.
[00:25:51] Samantha: Okay. Okay. Okay.
[00:25:53] Gavin: So maybe we not even done yet. Might not even be done yet, so.
[00:25:57] Samantha: I’m excited to see that unfold [laughter].
[00:25:59] Gavin: So anybody listening to this podcast, just remember us.
[00:26:06] Samantha: Yes. Wow. It’s really a pleasure seeing Julian grow because I remember seeing him from when he was a baby, and now he’s like over one years old.
[00:26:20] Gavin: Yeah. He’s almost two.
[00:26:21] Samantha: Wow. And walking and jumping and just– I can say that I’ve definitely been, I don’t even want to say inspired, but more empowered to talk openly about how I feel and not be– and not kind of waiver, especially when I get the things like, “Oh, when you get to older, you’re going to get over it,” or, “Just wait till you’re ovaries start [tinging?].” And so it’s really– I don’t think I speak for myself when it’s been an inspiring thing to watch.
[00:26:58] Gavin: Okay. I’m glad. That’s part of it, but there’s something I want to share with you, which actually I haven’t shared on the social media, which is that just a few years ago, I was in that same position where I was like, “I would never adopt. It’s not for me.” Just a few years ago.
[00:27:15] Samantha: Wow.
[00:27:16] Gavin: And what actually ended up happening is that our good friends in Florida who we’ve known since high school, they wanted to adopt, and they were contacted by people out here or someone out here who was willing to give their child. But the challenge was that the child wouldn’t be able to enter the United States until the paperwork had been finalized. And so the child needed somewhere to stay for however long it took. And so we fostered. And that was our first experience with a child at all. And so what we thought was going to be fostering a child for maybe three or four months, ended up just fostering the baby for almost a year and a half.
[00:28:05] Samantha: Wow.
[00:28:06] Gavin: Yeah. And it was that experience of being a foster dad that really just completely changed the perspective on what it means to be a father to somebody who is not biological yours. And to this day, I mean, he’s my godson and we stay in touch regularly and it is– the love I have for him is, again, just as if he was my son as well. So it’s one of those things that sometimes it takes a particular circumstance for you to change your mindset or for your eyes to be opened. So if people are of a particular mindset that they don’t think adoption is for them, that’s okay. There is no judgment in that. And that might actually be the best position for you. But don’t close your mind off to it because things happen. Life has a way of coming at you really, really fast. And when it does, you need to be ready for what happens next.
[00:29:05] Samantha: And definitely don’t condemn others for making that choice. I’m glad you brought up fostering because I know that since recently, they’ve been making it much more public, the fostering system that we have, and bringing home a child for Christmas, and just fostering in general. So I really want to take the time to– if you’re not– to encourage persons who may not necessarily be ready to commit to adoption, but they may want to open their home, whether or not they have children already, or their children have grown and left the home. They may be open to fostering and sharing their love with a child. And I don’t think they’ll– I don’t think we know how just showing love and opening up our homes and giving them this pleasant experience can really change the trajectory of a child’s life as well as yours.
[00:30:00] Gavin: That’s right. That’s right. In fact, going back to that issue, when the decision was being made for us to foster a child, I first, initially, was like, told my wife, “Are you crazy? How on earth could we be doing something like that, having a child here? I mean, that’s crazy.” And her message to me was, “You know, this could be the difference between him wiping car glass at a stoplight and him graduating from Harvard.” And I was like, “Well, if you put it like that.”
[00:30:33] Samantha: Yeah. I love that argument. A1, A1 argument.
[00:30:37] Gavin: Absolutely. She won right there. And so that is– yeah. You just have to keep your mind open and your heart open as well. And there’s just one other thing I wanted to mention. Some people look at our adoption as being charitable or as being somehow altruistic or philanthropic or something of that nature. It really isn’t anything of that nature. We didn’t see a child in a home suffering and say, “Let’s take him out of that situation.” No. Very much, we believed that this was the way that it was meant to be for us. We believed that Julian was destined to be ours from even before he was–
[00:31:21] Samantha: My heart. Oh my– I was– yeah.
[00:31:25] Gavin: Yeah. So it’s not a charity case. He is very much, I think, ours from the moment he [crosstalk].
[00:31:31] Samantha: Definitely. He’s definitely a Goffe.
[00:31:33] Gavin: Definitely a Goffe. Definitely a Goffe. And you can see, in terms of the habits that he’s been developing. He’s a very, very loving child. He’s surrounded by love. We have a very supportive family. His village is very strong and 100% behind him. And you can see that in his development and how it positively affects him. He’s a very confident young man, very loving young man.
[00:31:57] Samantha: Yes. I remember him jumping into my arms when we met.
[00:32:02] Gavin: Yeah. And those are some of the positive outcomes which come from nurture. That’s not genetic. And that’s a feature of the environment in which he’s grown up. So in many respects, he is ours. In everything except his DNA, he’s ours. And he’s a reflection of us as well. And honestly, it’s our privilege to be able to say that we are his parents and that we are trying to raise him as part of a family.
[00:32:26] Samantha: I’m very happy that we finally got to have this conversation. I know I asked you so long ago and you were so patient with me. I’m really happy. I hope that we have made more people aware of adoption and made more people interested in adopting and fostering. You never know what might come from this.
[00:32:51] Gavin: You never know.
[00:32:52] Samantha: So anything you want to say? Anything you want to close?
[00:32:55] Gavin: Sure. I mean, I’m on social media. My accounts are mostly open [laughter]. And if anybody wants to reach out and have a private word with me about any aspect of it, I’m happy to support in any way I can.
[00:33:08] Samantha: So where can they find you?
[00:33:09] Gavin: @goffeman on Twitter and photogoffe on Instagram.
[00:33:16] Samantha: So that’s G-O-F-F-E-M-A-N on Twitter.
[00:33:18] Gavin: G-O-F-F-E-M-A-N. And on Instagram, I am P-H-O-T-O-G-O-F-F-E, photogoffe.
[00:33:24] Samantha: Okay. All right. Thank you so much, Gavin, for having this conversation with me. I feel privileged to have this and be able to record it.
[00:33:32] Gavin: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for having me on and, hopefully, that your podcast will continue to grow from strength to strength. It’s my honour to be here.
[00:33:43] Samantha: So if you want to reach out to me or find me, you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @thelaymansdr, that’s thelaymansdr. Please feel free to send me a message. Send me any questions. You may be featured on my podcast. Email me at email@example.com. On whatever platform you’re listening to this to, please subscribe. Leave us a rating and leave a comment as well. Until next time, thank you so much for listening. [music]
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